Curse

Glasswalker · Jan 24, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

At the risk of stating (or restating) the obvious, I submit the following. Some people seem to need it said.

1. Run out of radar range, and the enchantment ends. The assassin goes to the ally.
2. If you Rend the Enchantment, sure the assasin Recalls, but he also just wasted a skill (no strategic use in Recalling when the enemy decides).
3. If either the assassin or the ally dies, this enchantment has no effect (I.E. doesn't work on corpses).
4. Assassins, as with Warriors, probably shouldn't be your first target. And I expect in most cases a */A would be a waste of a secondary profession. Who cares if a Ranger suddenly appears next to the Monk you are targetting?

Don't nerf it. I like enchantment removal. And no, I don't care if they re-cast it. Besides, I might have an Assassin on my team too.

Those that cry nerf (not just to this) seem to really be saying, "I'm comfortable in my ways, and I don't want to have to change my tactics no matter what."

Phades · Jan 24, 2006, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

4. Assassins, as with Warriors, probably shouldn't be your first target. And I expect in most cases a */A would be a waste of a secondary profession. Who cares if a Ranger suddenly appears next to the Monk you are targetting?

It is more along the lines of a worry that is becomes the meta-game, opposed to just a flavor within it. In some instances, its not about if X profession teleports back to the monk you are targeting, its if the monk you are targeting teleports away from your ablilty to harm them. This could cause a chain reaction of teleports in kind ending whatever pressure you had on their team. It is the kind of manuver to avoid the accrual of death penalty, while striking unexpectedly with melee inflicting death penalty and playing a war of attrition. Given the nature of static and drawn out confrontations that ritualists represent, it is the obvious counter manuver.

MSecorsky · Jan 24, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

OK... so if you remove enchantments from a few assassins, you've suddenly reduced the force your directly fighting in half.

Does anyone see the good in this?

sun is in us · Jan 24, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Dang my post was Echoed.

sun is in us · Jan 24, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

To the OP:

Fear is the Mind Killer.

I love it. I love the possibilities....I love the counters.....I Love capping the flag stand and teleporting halfway back to pick up another.......

This can only invigorate the game......I see Bases/Halls being able to be set up a little more fortress like....with Assasin Spike teams hopping the walls to spike and retreat.

I see Flag capping with a an Assassin Runner Aura of Displacement, being handed a flag from two other Assassins who have shadow stepped and "Pony Expressed" the flag back from its spawn...re capping the flag in 5-8 seconds......

I see assassin TPs to the catapault when least expected.

I see Assassin Trap teams that tp out behind the approaching split team to lay traps boxing them in......or Assassin Monks tp in back to protect those archers from them......

I see Nature's Renewal being more useful again.

I see teams of Spirit walkers heading accross the map in seconds after carefully making a path.....screaming right past the oppossing team and back into the flag stand area,.....or back inside the base.

I see a Spirit Walking Dedicated Spirit Killer build who systematically despatches them as quick as possible.

I see teams of Dazed Elementalists wondering what just happened before their second spike...

I see........Counters/Tactics to mitigate all of the above......

The Game is Afoot in the months ahead.......

Ensign · Jan 24, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

They can't tank like Warriors. However, I think they should still be left as last/second-last target.

Why in the nine hells would you ever do that?

Ok, here's a better question - why is the Warrior almost always the last one killed on a team? Answer: because most of the time you don't have a choice. Warriors have so much armor and damage reduction that trying to beat him down when he has Monk support is a waste of your time, and even if you catch him out of Monk range he'll just flash Endure Pain in your face. You don't go after your opponent's Warriors because *you can't kill them* until the other team is breaking most of the time.

If you do have an opportunity to kill a Warrior, due to lots of armor ignoring damage, or he's grossly overextended, or you catch him Frenzying without support or a cancel, *you take it*. Warriors are right next to Mesmers as the most dangerous characters on a team, and if you don't put a bit of fear in a Warrior and let him Frenzy to his heart's content he *is* the most dangerous character on a team, bar none. You can't kill him, so you have to settle for shutting him down to the best of your ability while you focus on breaking his team.

Which brings us to Assassins.

Assassins, as melee characters, have to be compared to Warriors in whatever job they're going to do. Being a melee character is a drawback, especially in GvG-type situation where the key targets you really want to get to stay far enough back that you'll have to extend outside of Monk support to do your job. Let's not tapdance around the problem this poses - unlike Warriors, Assassins are *soft*. If an Assassin trys to play like a Warrior and tries to sit on a target in the enemy back lines, he is going to turn into Assassin-paste, very quickly. Because of this, in my estimation, an Assassin in your backlines needs to be *significantly* more dangerous than a Warrior in the same situation. If that is true, that makes an Assassin in your backlines, without Monk support *the highest priority target in the entire game*.

There's no heavy armor to punish you for beating on him. He shouldn't have instantaneous Monk support. If you do not punish assassins in your backlines you deserve to lose.

The lowest priority targets are usually Elementalists and Necromancers, because, bluntly, they kinda suck and just sit there filling in holes while the Warriors and Mesmers do the real work. "Random utility guy" usually isn't the key to an opponent's build. Of course they're soft so sometimes you'll drop one just because you can, but hitting targets of opportunity is just good tactics. They might not be a key part of a build, but they eat up ressigs just the same.

Peace,
-CxE

Kilmore · Jan 24, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

First of all, i know the game isn't out yet, and we havn't seen all the skills, but if the game was shiped today, recall would be the most needed skill. stfu about radar range or whatever, it is virtualy unlimited mobility. So, on the off chance that ANet doesn't already have a good counter planned, here is an idea: Shorten the maintianable range of that encahntment, that way, it would be more for jumping back to monks if you start getting spiked.

Glasswalker · Jan 26, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

I didn't see some of these replies earlier because the search was broken, so I'm two days out of the argument. Anyway...

Overall, a good post Ensign, here's where I would add to it, or disagree.

Here are two more reasons why I go for Warriors last: Because they can be countered without wasting attacks on them. A blind warrior is a useless warrior. I can keep blind on all but a W/N constantly. Same goes for weakness.

Secondly because of battlefield placement. Few warriors hang out in the backfield and wait for you to come to them. They would be useless if they did. But since I just killed your Monk, I'm heading over to the Mesmer or Necro standing next to him. Only last do I mop up the guy swinging in frustration in my own backfield.

I will essentially aggree with your reasons why Assassins should be dealt with quicker than that, but I have yet to decide how much quicker. They are soft and deal a lot of damage quickly. In that respect they are more like Elementalists; but didn't you just say they pretty much suck(not that I agree)?

Sure, I like targets of opportunity as much as the next man, but there are practical reasons to ignore melee attackers aside from tankability.

And I won't even TOUCH your statement about Necromancers...

Ensign · Jan 27, 2006, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

Here are two more reasons why I go for Warriors last: Because they can be countered without wasting attacks on them. A blind warrior is a useless warrior.

This is true of most characters, with the right design you can pick a target and sit on his face. Nothing special there. It is simply common practice to shut down a warrior instead of trying to kill him because it is so much more efficient to attack the softies. Trying to shut down their casters to mitigate damage while you beat on their warrior just doesn't make any sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

Secondly because of battlefield placement. Few warriors hang out in the backfield and wait for you to come to them. They would be useless if they did.

That's true of warriors attacking warriors - obviously once they're both in the other team's midlines it's bloody inconvenient for them to attack each other. Of course having your warriors attack their warriors at the beginning of a fight isn't terribly unusual, at least for Korean teams. I'm talking about your midline casters though - if they can get away with turning around and hitting a warrior that's overextended, they should.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

They are soft and deal a lot of damage quickly. In that respect they are more like Elementalists; but didn't you just say they pretty much suck(not that I agree)?

I disagree with you here because I do not believe that an elementalist can deal a lot of damage quickly outside of textbook AoE situations. They can spike reasonably hard because of their large packet size, but over short, non-instantaneous timeframes they are too limited by casting times...over longer timeframes, by energy. They just don't represent nearly the threat that a warrior does.

Peace,
-CxE

draco inferno · Jan 27, 2006, 01:36 AM // 01:36

As usual, I only have a couple things to say here.
1.) I agree with you completely Ensign. The only thing I'm not certain of is the lack of faith you put in Elementalists. While I do agree that they aren't quite as effective as some other players, a coordinated Elementalist can be quite useful in certain situations.
2.) In response to some earlier posts about nerfing the assassin, every time a cry for a nerf comes along it frustrates the hell outta me. Guys, for every strategy there is a counter-strategy. Find it, exploit it, and use it to your advantage. Here's a hint: an assassin that warps away is not dealing you any damage!!! Use the time that you aren't being pounded on to heal/rez/whatever needs to be done. Just don't chase after them. That would be stupid. Also, every time a nerf is called for, it baffles me as to why people just don't use the strategy they are complaining about. Now, I might be beating a dead horse here. I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, so please feel free to tell me to stfu if I'm out of line. But honestly, in most situations, I find nerfing to be one of the most ridiculus things ever.
*note* There are some exceptions to this. There were one or two nerfs in the past that I felt needed to be instituted.
3.) Finally, you can bet I'm making an A/Me as soon as the expansion comes out. I love the idea of having a stealth character. The possibilities are virtually endless. While I'm not a big fan of the Ritualist, the Assassin is going to be without a doubt my new fave class.

heavy metal rules · Jan 27, 2006, 02:20 AM // 02:20

I made an a/me and what a blast it was during the pvp weekend, i came up with an incredible build that worked for a long time and i didn't even bother with any of the tp skills. I miss my sweet little assassin..she will be my first character in ch.2.

as far as all these skill go and, like some of you have already stated all the other class will be getting new skills, and although its great to agrue and speculate about what should and shouldn't be.. were just going to have to wait..and man altough is only months away, its months away..damn..

LightningHell · Jan 27, 2006, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Ensign, I don't use Elementalists for damage, alrighty? :P

Assassins are going to be hard to kill. I like eating up the opponent's rez sigs first

Disabling the Assassins are easier, IMHO.

Quote:

Assassins, as melee characters, have to be compared to Warriors in whatever job they're going to do. Being a melee character is a drawback, especially in GvG-type situation where the key targets you really want to get to stay far enough back that you'll have to extend outside of Monk support to do your job. Let's not tapdance around the problem this poses - unlike Warriors, Assassins are *soft*. If an Assassin trys to play like a Warrior and tries to sit on a target in the enemy back lines, he is going to turn into Assassin-paste, very quickly. Because of this, in my estimation, an Assassin in your backlines needs to be *significantly* more dangerous than a Warrior in the same situation. If that is true, that makes an Assassin in your backlines, without Monk support *the highest priority target in the entire game*.

They should be targeted first, but well, they teleport back pretty quickly

Unless you actually have an organized team (I live in an entirely different timezone so I have NOT encountered any of these yet, in Tombs - oops HA - yet.) Then they should be absolutely first target.

Wait a minute. You're from iQ. Organized play.

Nevermind, then.

Ensign · Jan 27, 2006, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by draco inferno

The only thing I'm not certain of is the lack of faith you put in Elementalists. While I do agree that they aren't quite as effective as some other players, a coordinated Elementalist can be quite useful in certain situations.

I put little faith in them as damage dealers because, well, they kinda suck at dealing damage. I think you can make a pretty good utility character with an Elementalist, though, between Wards, Windborne Speed, Gale...they have the energy management to power a lot of that stuff out too. While Elementalists don't apply any sort of pressure (besides masterfully built and played fire guys, but even those are kinda sketch in PvP) they can spike. They aren't unplayable, but they are most certainly role-fillers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draco inferno

2.) In response to some earlier posts about nerfing the assassin, every time a cry for a nerf comes along it frustrates the hell outta me. Guys, for every strategy there is a counter-strategy.

Oh don't get ahead of yourself. I don't think anyone really understands how to play an Assassin right now, nor do I think that anyone has any idea what makes them good (or fail to be good) and why. People asking for a certain skill to be nerfed very likely *do not even know if it's any good*. The whole discussion is incredibly amusing.

Peace,
-CxE

draco inferno · Jan 28, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Oh don't get ahead of yourself. I don't think anyone really understands how to play an Assassin right now, nor do I think that anyone has any idea what makes them good (or fail to be good) and why. People asking for a certain skill to be nerfed very likely *do not even know if it's any good*. The whole discussion is incredibly amusing.

My original comment was geared more toward the OP, but ok.

And as for the Elementalists, I have played a little more with them in PvP. I was gone for about 5 monts starting in August, so a lot of strategies changed while I was away. Man, with all the modern strategies Elementalists really aren't all that great for PvP anymore...
I think they are now officially my ex-favorite class. Stupid nerfs and new fangled strategies.

Ensign · Jan 28, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by draco inferno

My original comment was geared more toward the OP, but ok.

Yes, I know, but I was inspired by what you said hence the quote. You can quote someone and agree with them you know. =)

Quote:

Originally Posted by draco inferno

Man, with all the modern strategies Elementalists really aren't all that great for PvP anymore...
I think they are now officially my ex-favorite class. Stupid nerfs and new fangled strategies.

Elementalists haven't been nerfed significantly - hell, for the most part they've been getting buff after buff in the updates. What has changed is that people have gotten better at the game in general, and they're discovering that the other classes just have so much more to offer than an Elementalist. Sure they have a place, like as an Obsidian Flame spiker with lots of utility or an Ether Prodigy / Heal Party guy with lots of utility. But the one thing that an Elementalist is not, is a nuker. Once you get past trying to nuke you can find some nice uses for an Elementalist...it's just that he was sold as a nuking class to a lot of people, who are justifiably disappointed to find out that what they ended up with was a 'ward bitch'.

Peace,
-CxE

Nevin · Jan 28, 2006, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Assassins were my first target, they were like rangers with out the elemental bonus. Easy kills.

Symbol · Jan 28, 2006, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Yes, I know, but I was inspired by what you said hence the quote. You can quote someone and agree with them you know. =)

Elementalists haven't been nerfed significantly - hell, for the most part they've been getting buff after buff in the updates. What has changed is that people have gotten better at the game in general, and they're discovering that the other classes just have so much more to offer than an Elementalist. Sure they have a place, like as an Obsidian Flame spiker with lots of utility or an Ether Prodigy / Heal Party guy with lots of utility. But the one thing that an Elementalist is not, is a nuker. Once you get past trying to nuke you can find some nice uses for an Elementalist...it's just that he was sold as a nuking class to a lot of people, who are justifiably disappointed to find out that what they ended up with was a 'ward bitch'.

Peace,
-CxE

Mmm, I'm not sure about this. There are a few elementalist builds that can "nuke" effectively (aka deliver high sustained dps), but the problems are four fold.

1) The best energy management for elementalists are enchantments
2) The best dps builds require high energy expenditure
3) Most elementalist defense is based around enchantments
4) Elementalists don't have any easy way to bypass armor, meaning their damage output is heavily reduced on armored targets.

Warriors on the other hand can deliver very high sustained dps to soft targets and good dps to hard targets (because they have strength and armor ignoring + damage on skills) without any conditions. And they're sturdy.

Note that I'm not particularly happy about this state of affairs, but that's how it is.

Also note that necromancers have potentially big armor-ignoring damage output up close and at range. I don't think they're limited to "utility" roles out of necessity.

Ensign · Jan 28, 2006, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Moved my piece on the merits (or lack thereof) of elementalists HERE so that this thread can get back on track.

Peace,
-CxE

Dredogol · Jan 28, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

WOW...never thought the Assassin's teleport would be used THAT way in GvG...

Anyways, even if they do manage to get rid of the Teleport skills or something, do you guys till think the Assassin is still overpowered?

Sorry, but I did not get to play in the Factions demo weekend. So please tell me if you think this works for those who DID play.

I've been studying the Assasin build and how everyone said it's Overpowered and others say balanced?

Well, I've been studying the various builds ideas, taking in everyone's ideas as to how to get around the Assassin build. Some say it will replace the warrior, while others say the warrior will still own the Assassin.

However, has anyone very thought about making the assassin build like this?

-------------------------------------------
Jobs:
Assassin / Necromancer

Dagger Mastery 12 (10 + 2Helm/Rune)
Blood Magic 12
Rest...whatever you want

I was planning on killing Block/Evade Warriors and Rangers like this:
1) 10eng Lv1 CURSE (2sec cast) Rigor Mortis (8sec cannot block/evade)
2) 05eng DM LEAD Black Mantis Thrust (+17dmg & cripple 13sec if foe Hexed)
**) 05eng DM LEAD Desperate Strike (+41dmg if your HP below 61%)
3) 05eng DM OFFHAND Wild Strike (+17dmg & foe loes stance)
4) 05eng DM OFFHAND Repeating Strikes (+17dmg)
5) 05eng DM DUAL Death Blossom (+22dmg & adjacent foes)
6) 05eng DM DUAL Nine Tail Strike (+29dmg & all skill recharge if foe HP -50%)

...At this point, you have spent 35 Energy to deal +102 Damage over the period of 4-5 seconds.
...If your foe is still alive with some health and you have a larger mana pool, you may also use this skill:

1) 10eng ELITE Life Transfer (11sec, 7HP degen on foe & +7HP regen on you)

PROS:
1) Well...basically...you have shut down any Warrior, Ranger, or Caster who might use a stance or spell to block/evade your attacks.
2) Whatever stance they had, you already disabled.
3) You alraedy Crippled them, so running is not an option.
4) Because they cannot block/evade without removing the Hex you put on them, they cannot cast another block stance.
5) If your enemy does NOT have a block/evade stance/skill, you can save another 10 energy.
6) If option5 is used, you can squeese in Deperate Strike as your 2nd Lead Attack if your HP is below 61%.

CONS:
1) You're fighting a Mesmer who can use Energy Drain skills like DOM Energy Burn (lose 4-9eng & take 8dmg/pt lost) and ILL Sympathetic Visage (lose all adrenaline & 3eng per attack) so you cannot do your massive attack runs.
2) You are hit with Blind and you cannot continue with your attack run.

...If this happens, you may sacrifice your Extra Lead Attack skill for the Necromancer's Plague Touch (transfer negative condition to foe) costs 5 energy.

I say there is not much of a CON, because Mesmer's are not too strong, you should be able to pull off 2-4 of your attack blows, then smack your enemy with normal melee attacks while he cripples away.
If he takes off cripple, you always have the option to use Life Transfer, so keep at least 10 Energy available at all times when fighting Mesmer classes.

Just wondering how everyone thought this build would do...

Anyways, I know this would probably PAWN in PvP...but what do you think about GvG? You can easily shut down 1 warrior, or even the healer, but you'll have to wait some time before you get all your energy back to use your attack run again.

Glasswalker · Jan 29, 2006, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dredogol

Some say it will replace the warrior, while others say the warrior will still own the Assassin.

And still others say that each will have its place, independent of the other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dredogol

Assassin / Necromancer

PROS:
1) Well...basically...you have shut down any Warrior, Ranger, or Caster who might use a stance or spell to block/evade your attacks.
2) Whatever stance they had, you already disabled.
3) You alraedy Crippled them, so running is not an option.
4) Because they cannot block/evade without removing the Hex you put on them, they cannot cast another block stance.
5) If your enemy does NOT have a block/evade stance/skill, you can save another 10 energy.
6) If option5 is used, you can squeese in Deperate Strike as your 2nd Lead Attack if your HP is below 61%.

CONS:
1) You're fighting a Mesmer who can use Energy Drain skills like DOM Energy Burn (lose 4-9eng & take 8dmg/pt lost) and ILL Sympathetic Visage (lose all adrenaline & 3eng per attack) so you cannot do your massive attack runs.
2) You are hit with Blind and you cannot continue with your attack run.

I'm not sure how accurate your damage calculations or energy expenditures are because you actually have 2 attack runs here. Offhand attacks (for the most part) must follow Leads, and Duals must follow Offhands (again, for the most part). You have one of the exceptions here though, and that's Repeating Strike. The beauty of it is that there is no recharge, and you can hit it multiple times for +17 damage at 5en. It has to follow an Offhand though, so your chains look something like this:

BMT - WS - RS - RS (etc.) - Death Blossom then
DS - Moebius Strike (Nine Tail Strike's description is wrong here...) - RS - RS (etc.) - Death Blossom (You need this refreshed by MS to use it again so soon)

Now Rigor Mortis will be great for 18 out of 30 seconds, but the first attack in a chain has to hit for any of the others to have an effect. In other words, for Wild Strike to remove their stance, you have to hit them with BMT or DS. Wards and Blind are also your enemy. I would say if you are going /N then you NEED Plague Touch (or one of it's cousins).

As to your list of cons, Mesmers can do far worse to you. I would put Clumsiness and Soul Shackles in that list. You won't have hex removal from either class, so you rely heavily on teammates that you may be too far from. And you will have no way to heal or escape the damage they will be doing to you. Um, and no Res Signet. You should have one.

Moebius Strike is an Elite as well, so you would have to pick between it and Life Transfer in your build, but as Energy will be a huge problem, Offering of Blood would be much better suited. I also recommend Zealous weapons.

I would have to say that in its current form, this build would be owned more than it would own.